| Name |
Views and Comments | Date |
| Marc Taylor |
A person ought to believe in Holy Spirit baptism for God has declared that without it a person is not a Christian. According to Acts 10:45 and Acts 11:16 to have the Holy Spirit "poured" (ekxew) on you and to be baptized with the Holy Spirit is the same thing.
Pouring = Baptism
But Paul tells us in Titus 3:6 that ALL who are Christians have had the Holy Spirit "poured" (ekxew) on them. Thus since all Christians have had the Holy Spirit poured on them and pouring and baptism is the same thing (Acts 10:45 and Acts 11:16) then all who are Christians have been baptized with the Holy Spirit. |
11/12/2008 |
| Denny Smith |
These are my last comments in this discussion. Marc will have the last word if he chooses to do so. I am moving on with life.
If a person wants to believe in Holy Spirit baptism in 2008 who am I to stop him? If a person wants to believe in modern day miracles (healings, speaking in tongues, prophecy, etc.) who am I to stop him? If a person wants to believe water does not mean water as it relates to the gospel who am I to stop him? If a person wants to believe there has been two gospels in the Christian dispensation who am I to stop him? I am convinced that what was preached on the Day of Pentecost was meant for all men in all time to come but who am I to stop the person who disagrees?
I have one more article on the general subject in the Buzzle pipeline but it is no attempt on my part to get in the last word. It is just already there and has been for a couple of days. I suspect, but do not know, that Marc will again have his comments. That is fine but I am through with the discussion whether he comments or not.
Discussion can be a good thing up to a point. After that it becomes counter productive for all. I believe we have reached that point. There is a fine line between contending for the faith and being argumentative and unpleasant. Every Christian ought to do the former but none the latter. Marc has made his case. I have made mine. The truth is there are many who will agree with neither one of us.
We all have to stand before the judgment seat of Christ. I suspect but do not know I am closer to that than Marc is. I once heard a preacher say that when you get older you start to look at death differently which means, of course, that you begin to look at life differently as well. I have no desire to fight and fuss. I want to fulfill my obligation to contend for the faith but having done that, in this case, it is time to move on.
As time goes by I will be writing more articles, Lord willing, and the reader will have to decide for himself. That is the way it ought to be. |
11/11/2008 |
| Marc Taylor |
1. As I stated earleir their water baptism was a form of their repentance (Acts 2:38). Since Denny belittles "scholarship" it makes me wonder if it is worth citing any Greek lexicon that proves him wrong on this for he simply chooses to make up his own defintions for the biblical words involved.
2. I have 5 Greek lexicons that demonstrate if one has the gift of the Holy Spriit they are saved. Thus far the total number of lexicons my opponent has cited that contradict mine is ZERO - and no his opinion doesn't count.
3. Denny's comments about not knowing if one has to do more now just reveals his complete misunderstanding of the Bible. Acts 10 is the only clear cut example given to us as to when any Gentile received the Holy Spirit - and that before water baptism. I ask him once again please supply a clear cut case where any Gentile was told to be water baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord or that any Gentile was ever water baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. He can't supply one example.
4. Speaking about cutting one's own throat let's see what the TDNT says about baptism and repentance.
"...baptism is in the first instance an expression of repentance"(TDNT 1:537).
But hey that's OK. When one chooses to make up their own defintions it doesn't matter what words really mean.
5. Denny cited Romans 6:3, 4 in a desperate attempt to find anything to help him out but what he has not done is shown why this passage can not refer to being baptized with the Holy Spirit.
6. I find it fascinating to see how Denny has dropped all mention of the conversion of the Gentiles in Acts 10. Very telling indeed. It is really sad that despite all the evidence which he can not refute he still insts that these Gentiles were not saved before they were water baptized. Myths die hard. |
11/11/2008 |
| Denny Smith |
Marc, despite his scholarship, is cutting his own throat without any help from me. Most readers will easily see that if he has the Jews on the day of Pentecost saved one way, by water baptism, and everyone else later in another way that one plus one is two - two gospels and yet he denies the math.
He talks about the Jews on the Day of Pentecost having greater sin and thus a need to do more than others to be saved. They have to be water baptized but everyone else later can be saved another way. What we have then is Peter preaching one way of salvation to the crowd on the Day of Pentecost and another way to other groups later. Who can believe it? I go even further and say who ever heard of such a thing before reading his comments?
Following his reasoning out to its logical conclusion it puts us all in a bind. If what one must do to be saved is dependent on how great his sin is then sin must be measured. If I can do that (how I have no idea) and my sin is greater than yours I logically must do more than you in order to be saved. Some then have to work harder than others to be saved and we have a salvation based on works not grace.
I believe baptism to be a part of grace but it is not under Marc's scenario for there it is works. I was worse so I have to do more.
He attempts to make baptism equal repentance. Peter made them two different things on the Day of Pentecost, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." (Acts 2:38) Marc says of the Jews on the Day of Pentecost that "water baptism was a form of repentance." Most of us say baptism is one thing and repentance another but not Marc. Baptism is now repentance. I said earlier that he was cutting his own throat without help from me.
If one wants to know what baptism is then Rom. 6:3-4 is a better testament, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (NKJV) |
11/10/2008 |
| Marc Taylor |
The author of this article fails to understand the following key points:
1. The gift of the Holy Spirit
2. 1 John 4:13
3. Commands
4. Acts 15:7, 8
5. Acts 2:38
6. Questions
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1. The gift of the Holy Spirit
- Below are five Greek lexicons that state if one has "the gift of the Holy Spirit" such a person is saved. This describes the Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48).
a. Brown: For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (NIDNTT 3:701, Spirit).
b. Kittel: The very same gift of the greatest thing man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God, and establishes the unity of the church (TDNT 3:349, isos).
c. Mounce: Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 341, hope).
d. Thayer: respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, page 609, sphragizw, Strong's #4972).
e. Vine: In the metaphor of the believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing...(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words,page 1003, seal).
- Below are five Greek lexicons that state the gift of the Holy Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit Himself both in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45.
a. Danker: receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, page 266, dwrea).
b. The usage of dwrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (EDNT 1:364 - dwrea).
c. Kittel: In Ac. the Spirit is called the dwrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (TDNT 2:167, dwron).
d. Thayer: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (page 161, dwrea).
e. Vine: In Acts 2:38 'the gift of the Holy Ghost', the clause is epexegetical, the gift being the Holy Ghost Himself; cf. 10:45; 11:17 (page 477, gift)
Thus by having "the gift of the Holy Spirit" before they were water baptized demonstrates that these Gentiles in Acts 10 were already saved before they were water baptized.
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2. 1 John 4:13
The author's comments concerning 1 John 4:13 were a complete mishandling of the word of God. How does one know that they abide in God? "Because He has given us of His Spirit". Notice the word "given" for it is the Greek word "didwmi". Peter tells us in Acts 11:17 that the Gentiles were "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit. This event took place before the Gentiles were water baptized. Thus the Gentiles abode in God before they were water baptized.
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3. Commands
Just because something is commanded does not necessitate that it is to be done in order to be saved. Is partaking the Lord's Supper a command? Yes. To whom is it a command for? Christians or non-Christians? It is a command for Christians (those already saved). The same holds true with these Gentiles in Acts 10. Since they already possessed the Holy Spirit water baptism was commanded to them after they were saved.
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4. Acts 15:7, 8
The Gentiles were given the Holy Spriit (Acts 15:8) but they had already heard and believed (Acts 15:7).
If the author of this article insists that the word "believe" is not used in the salvific sense it is incumbent upon him to demonstrate so for God bore witness to this belief by giving them the Holy Spriit. No wonder the TDNT 7:728 (epistrephw) states that:
In Peter's speech in 15:7 "to believe" is used in the sense "to be converted".
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5. Acts 2:38
I agree that those in Acts 2:38 did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until they were water baptized. What I would like to see is a clear cut case of any Gentile told to be weater baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. These Jews of this transition time period (cf. Acts 22:16) received the gift of the Holy Spirit upon their water baptism. It was they who committed the"greater sin" by delivering up their Messiah to Pilate (John 19:11) and as such they were required to be water baptized in order to be saved. Faith encompassed their water baptism.
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Questions
1. I'd like to see your list of Greek lexicons that state one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost?
2. If one abides in God (1 John 4:13) in that they have been "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit is such a person saved or unsaved?
3. What is your evidence that the word "believe" in Acts 15:7 is used in a non-salvific sense?
4. Please show from Scripture a clear cut case where any Gentile was water baptized in the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins. |
11/10/2008 |
| Marc Taylor |
First of all I would like to thank Danny for his comments.
The assertion that water baptism is for the remission of sins needs to be clarified. For the Jews of this time period it is true but for us today it is not true. Salvation is by faith but faith is often used as a synecdoche encomapssing confession and repentance. For these Jews during this time period who committed the greater sin their water baptism was a form of repentance. They cried out for the Lord Jesus to be crucified, whom they had also beaten, spat upon, punched, ridiculed, etc etc. It is this name that they must be water baptized in.
It ought to be pointed out as well that when Christ said the greater sin involved "delivering" (paradidwmi) Him up to Pilate (John 19:11) it must be remembered that Peter accused the Jews of delivering (paradidwmi) Christ up to Pilate (Acts 3:13). They as a whole committed "the greater sin".
Depending on what one has done or hasn't done will determine how one needs to repent. A man that never committed murder would have no need to repent of murdering somebody. Anyone who has committed this sin would need to repent of it.
There is one gospel. All are saved by faith but this faith encompasses both confession (Romans 10:10) and repentance (Acts 17:30). For these Jews during this time period thier greater sin involved a form of repentance that is not once ever applied to any Gentile. |
11/10/2008 |
| Denny Smith |
In trying to be kind to all I feel some obligation to make at least a limited response to my critics but I find as I post more and more articles and thus have more and more readers it is becoming very difficult to respond to all. I will either have to quit writing or else quit responding to every critic. (I post to 6 directories so there are critics from more than one source.)
However, let me respond in part to what Marc wrote above. I do that by saying first of all I will be posting another article here for review and approval later today entitled "Is Holy Spirit Baptism the Baptism That Saves?" Marc, contends that it is. The approval process for an article usually takes a few days but if you have any interest you can check back in later in the week.
I have learned much in Marc's writing as he has set me straight if he could just get me to believe it. I have heard things I never heard before in my life so I guess I owe him. His comments on Acts 2:38 for example where he says, "It was they (the Jews on the day of Pentecost - DS) who committed the 'greater sin' by delivering up their Messiah to Pilate (John 19:11) and as such they were required to be water baptized in order to be saved."
What? Why go any further? He has admitted what I have argued all along - water baptism is for the remission of sins. Unless he contends for two gospels (one for the Jews and one for the Gentiles), instead of one for all, the case is closed. Any reader of my articles knows that I have always contended for but one gospel, one way of salvation. Marc now has two. |
11/9/2008 |
| Marc Taylor |
The author of this article fails to understand the following key points:
1. The gift of the Holy Spirit
2. 1 John 4:13
3. Commands
4. Acts 15:7, 8
5. Acts 2:38
6. Questions
----------------------------------------------
1. The gift of the Holy Spirit
- Below are five Greek lexicons that state if one has "the gift of the Holy Spirit" such a person is saved. This describes the Gentiles (Acts 10:45) before they were water baptized (Acts 10:48).
a. Brown: For Paul it was precisely the gift of the Spirit which distinguished the Christian from the Jew, the new age from the old (Rom. 2:29; 7:6; 2 Cor. 3:6-8; Gal. 4:29; Phil. 3:3) (NIDNTT 3:701, Spirit).
b. Kittel: The very same gift of the greatest thing man can receive, the gift of the Holy Spirit, accomplishes and bears witness to the equality of the recipients before God, and establishes the unity of the church (TDNT 3:349, isos).
c. Mounce: Christian hope is strengthened by the Scriptures (Rom. 15:4), by the work of Jesus (1 Pet. 1:3, 21), and by God's present gift of the Spirit to believers (Rom. 5:5) (Mounce's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, page 341, hope).
d. Thayer: respecting God, who by the gift of the Holy Spirit indicates who are his, (Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, page 609, sphragizw, Strong's #4972).
e. Vine: In the metaphor of the believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing...(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words,page 1003, seal).
- Below are five Greek lexicons that state the gift of the Holy Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit Himself both in Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:45.
a. Danker: receive the Spirit as a gift Ac. 2:38; cp. 10:45 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, page 266, dwrea).
b. The usage of dwrea in the NT is concentrated on the gracious gift which has already been given by God, namely, Christ (John 4:10), the Spirit (Acts 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17), or "righteousness" (Rom. 5:15, 17) (EDNT 1:364 - dwrea).
c. Kittel: In Ac. the Spirit is called the dwrea of God in 2:38; 8:20; 10:45; 11:17 (TDNT 2:167, dwron).
d. Thayer: with an epexegetical gen. of the thing given, the Holy Ghost, Ac 2:38, 10:45 (page 161, dwrea).
e. Vine: In Acts 2:38 'the gift of the Holy Ghost', the clause is epexegetical, the gift being the Holy Ghost Himself; cf. 10:45; 11:17 (page 477, gift)
Thus by having "the gift of the Holy Spirit" before they were water baptized demonstrates that these Gentiles in Acts 10 were already saved before they were water baptized.
-------------------------------------------
2. 1 John 4:13
The author's comments concerning 1 John 4:13 were a complete mishandling of the word of God. How does one know that they abide in God? "Because He has given us of His Spirit". Notice the word "given" for it is the Greek word "didwmi". Peter tells us in Acts 11:17 that the Gentiles were "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit. This event took place before the Gentiles were water baptized. Thus the Gentiles abode in God before they were water baptized.
---------------------------------------------
3. Commands
Just because something is commanded does not necessitate that it is to be done in order to be saved. Is partaking the Lord's Supper a command? Yes. To whom is it a command for? Christians or non-Christians? It is a command for Christians (those already saved). The same holds true with these Gentiles in Acts 10. Since they already possessed the Holy Spirit water baptism was commanded to them after they were saved.
------------------------------------------------
4. Acts 15:7, 8
The Gentiles were given the Holy Spriit (Acts 15:8) but they had already heard and believed (Acts 15:7).
If the author of this article insists that the word "believe" is not used in the salvific sense it is incumbent upon him to demonstrate so for God bore witness to this belief by giving them the Holy Spriit. No wonder the TDNT 7:728 (epistrephw) states that:
In Peter's speech in 15:7 "to believe" is used in the sense "to be converted".
-----------------------------------
5. Acts 2:38
I agree that those in Acts 2:38 did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until they were water baptized. What I would like to see is a clear cut case of any Gentile told to be weater baptized for the forgiveness of sins in the name of the Lord. These Jews of this transition time period (cf. Acts 22:16) received the gift of the Holy Spirit upon their water baptism. It was they who committed the"greater sin" by delivering up their Messiah to Pilate (John 19:11) and as such they were required to be water baptized in order to be saved. Faith encompassed their water baptism.
----------------------------------------------------
Questions
1. I'd like to see your list of Greek lexicons that state one can have the gift of the Holy Spirit and be lost?
2. If one abides in God (1 John 4:13) in that they have been "given" (didwmi) the Holy Spirit is such a person saved or unsaved?
3. What is your evidence that the word "believe" in Acts 15:7 is used in a non-salvific sense?
4. Please show from Scripture a clear cut case where any Gentile was water baptized in the name of the Lord for the forgiveness of sins. |
11/8/2008 | |
